The Wonder of the Imaginary Internet

by Mike Coffey

We’re getting some new eyeballs and participation here on the boards at NDN thanks to some recent references in blog posts, online news articles, op-ed pieces, and whatever the hell it is that Brian Cook allegedly gets paid to do.  Some folks decided to take us to task for allegedly improper negativity following two weeks in a row of heartbreaking losses by ND’s football team.

We here at NDN certainly are not afraid to stand behind our opinions.  If we weren’t, we’d be wasting our time.  But I read some of the criticisms leveled at both our site users and us Board Ops, both here and elsewhere, and I’m forced to conclude those folks are reading some Imaginary Internet because I don’t see what they’re seeing.  To wit:

The Imaginary Internet Says: Everyone at NDNation has already judged Brian Kelly to be a failure.

The Real Internet Says: Just about nobody at NDNation has said that.

Sure, there may be an extreme viewpoint expressed now and then, sometimes fueled by post-loss frustration or post-loss drinking or a combination of the two.  But I don’t believe I’ve read any serious posts by any serious people who are suggesting Kelly is a failure or even close to having been judged one.  I can’t speak for everyone — when you have over 9,000 registered posters, you’re going to get a lot of variety in what’s posted — but I’m comfortable saying none of our reasonable posters have made any kind of judgment yet.

The Imaginary Internet Says: NDNation people want Brian Kelly to fail so they can say they were right about him not being the best hire.

The Real Internet Says: NDNation people want Brian Kelly to succeed so the losing will stop.

Yes, a lot of posters here had reservations about Kelly at the time he was hired.  His resume, while long, did not include any time at top-level programs the kind at which the pressures and expectations and day-to-day operations are different than at lower-level programs.  He didn’t have a lot of experience recruiting blue-chip athletes, some of whom require a different kind of hand-holding than more run-of-the-mill players.  Some of us felt the ND administrators targeted Kelly from the get-go rather than trying to stretch the grasp a little bit and go after candidates who, while possibly more difficult to acquire, would have an experience level more commensurate with those of past successful ND coaches (e.g. playing in and/or winning a statistically significant number of games against other top coaches).

But Brian Kelly is the coach, and so far, he seems to be doing a lot of positive things.  He helped push for the training table that will help keep the players in top shape.  He put together a schedule and program to try and bring the team together as a more cohesive unit.  He’s made practices a lot tougher.  He hasn’t shrunk from expectations, but seemingly has embraced them.

And even if Kelly hadn’t done those things, we’d still be behind him.  What’s the point of not being?  We hate to lose just as much as (if not more than) any other ND fans.  We want ND football to be great again.  So we want Brian Kelly to win as many games as possible.  So what if we were uneasy about the hire?  We’re not going to shrink from that.  Good results trump all.  If our fears prove to have been unfounded, so be it.  We don’t care.

The Imaginary Internet Says: NDNation just criticizes Brian Kelly.

The Real Internet Says: NDNation calls it as it sees it.

When Brian Kelly does things worthy of praise, he gets it.  As noted above, the training table, schedule, and determination have all been cited as positive things.  Throw into the mix the high-quality recruits that have committed, and there are things to be happy about and we’ve said as much.

But that doesn’t mean we’re going to shrink from pointing out potential problems, particularly when they seem to be borne of the same concerns we had when he was hired.  Pointing out concerns doesn’t mean we’ve given up on him, doesn’t mean we’ve judged him to be a failure, and doesn’t mean we want him fired.  It means we’ve noticed things that may keep Brian Kelly from having the kind of success we want him to have at ND, and if he doesn’t correct those things, chances are good he won’t have it.  It’s not heresy to do so.  It’s good analysis.

The Imaginary Internet Says: NDNation censors pro-Kelly opinions and protects their friends’ posts

The Real Internet Says: NDNation censors stupid opinions regardless of stance.

My usual philosophy of board monitoring goes something like this:  If when I read a post, I can picture it being said in a high-pitched voice by an overly-wide-eyed person, chances are it’s going in the circular file.  If you’re doing the Spartan Cheerleader Perfect Cheer in message board form, you’re going to get shit-canned, and I’m not about to apologize for it.  That’s not intelligent posting.  We’re not a rah-rah fanboy site, and we never will be.

By the same token, if you’re just being a witless crank, you’re going to get popped as well.  Going overboard doesn’t do anyone any favors.  I’ve personally handed out bad deletes to people like ACross and BeijingIrish and Chuck84 and anyone else you could list as being on the “protected list”, so spare me the whining.

The best part of Brian Kelly and the team starting to win again would be the reduction in use of the Imaginary Internet.  I’m usually not one for prayer requests, but right now, that’s mine.

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40 thoughts on “The Wonder of the Imaginary Internet

  1. There are certainly many passionate, intelligent, sincere posters at NDN, but there are also many careless, clueless, idiots who are too quick to react and put their thoughts in writings via these Boards. Isn’t this why the Board Ops chose to wipe out all the posts made in the 24 hour period following the devastating loss to MSU? Your deletion of these emotional, over-reactive posts supports the comments made by the “Imaginary Internet”. Like Ollie North, you made all the evidence disappear.

    • And that’s why those posts were deleted … they were stupid. I suppose you’ve never said anything out of frustration when you’re angry. Must be nice to be you.

      • The problem is you are viewed by most loyal readers as more than just fans venting your opinions at the times. Maybe this is a pat on your back or maybe it’s a slap to modern internet journalism, but many of us out here view this web site on a similar level as “conventional” media outlets with similar professionalism and (nearly) unbiased approach. We expect more of you than to post rants of momentary opinion. Like it or not, we look to NDNation as a credible resource, and our disappointment comes from the lack of credibility at times.

        • “NDNation” is not a monolithic entity–like many sites in the blogosphere, it has an editorial component and a public comment component.

          I don’t know who in their right mind would look at the “comments” portion of a website as a consistently credible source–and that’s what the message boards at NDN are. Many posters have very good insights on the football program, but since it’s a message board, buyer beware–there are a lot of weeds among the blooms.

          On the other hand, the editorial content of NDN is of high quality, and should be viewed consistently by those who want to round out their understanding of Notre Dame athletics.

    • I haven’t read all these posts, but there must be some similar feelings between me and others. I was surprised to see so much negativity in some of the main web sites that cover ND. Three games into the season. Wow.

  2. I agree with everything in the article except the censorship part. You DO censor opinions you do not agree with. This particularly happened during the last coaching choice discussions. If you really wanted to do the right thing you would open up the discussion page to everyone and not block those who do not toe the ND Nation party line. ND 1975 grad

    • We censor opinions that are expressed in a ridiculous manner. “What about so-and-so” posts with no supporting data didn’t add to the discussion, so it was bounced. Posts that told people that disagreed with the choice that they should shut up because the ND administration knows better were dispatched with prejudice because that viewpoint is just stupid. If you look at RH right now, there are plenty of posts from both sides of the discussion. The ones that haven’t been deleted are the ones that add something to the mix.

      • You also censor opinions that merely disagree with yours.

        During the independence discussions, you allowed all the ridiculous posts that said that the ND Board should *not even entertain* conference membership offers. But when I suggested it was their job to receive and at least consider the offers (even if they turn them down), I was banned from future posts on Rock’s House.

        Maybe my post was taken as a “the ND administration knows better” post, I don’t know. I never even got an email about this, even though I asked for one.

        • ND maintaining its football independence at all costs is part of NDN’s mission statement. That goes beyond “disagreement”.

          • I didn’t argue that ND should join a conference.

            I argued that the Board had a FIDUCIARY DUTY to at least _consider_ those options before disposing of them (even if fans, who do not have that fiduciary duty, would act differently), and that it would be malpractice, unprofessional, and disrespectful for them to ignore that duty. That’s all–no arguments that ND should join a conference–and I got banned.

            Where is this NDN mission statement?

          • Whoa–after you just posted a defense of your administration of reasonable posts, you now admit that you unilaterally interpret Notre Dame’s”mission statement” regarding conference affiliation as “beyond disagreement” when even the ND admins have acknowledged that options have been considered? You seem to be turning past practice into a mission statement, yet even the University has avoided that. That is censorship based on an irrational premise, and NedofTheHill seems to have a point.

            There seems to be an arbitrary labeling of differing opinions (” I don’t believe I’ve read any serious posts by any serious people ” or “If when I read a post, I can picture it being said in a high-pitched voice by an overly-wide-eyed person, chances are it’s going in the circular file. If you’re doing the Spartan Cheerleader Perfect Cheer in message board form, you’re going to get shit-canned”) that requires a knowledge of your definitions of “serious” or “fanboy.”

            If you aspire to be nothing more than a message board, these aren’t concerned. If you purport to approach ND sports from all angles, attitudes such as these undermine your credibility.

  3. Quote:

    “Jesus Christ, Scott, we went out and hired the wrong guy. Many of us suspected we had done so, and we were abused. We were also required to endure months of bullshit about Leadership and Secret Sauce. Now we see that our fears are confirmed. The guy is a good coach for a second tier school like Cincinnati. But he’s wrong for us, he’s in over his head, and the product on the field shows it. Let’s at least be honest with one another.

    I wanted so badly for this to work out. It just didn’t. ”

    You yourself have posted that Rock’s House is about the “bigger picture issues,” so it’s not altogether unexpected when a distinct party line seems to appear — that is, of course, your right.

    • That’s one out of a couple thousand, and the author in question fully admits his view is an outlier and he doesn’t expect people to subscribe to his newsletter

    • I wonder if Al Gore had invented the internet in 1986 after Lou’s first couple of games if the same things would have been said…

  4. I have been a reader of this site for years. I have never asked for a handle because I doubt I could add anything to the discussion. Yet I read this site hourly. I believe that the favoritism shown to ACross is evident in his reply to Leahy on Rock’s house right now. I am sure I will receive a snarky reply. Still I wonder what ACross’ veiled critcism in his response to Leahy adds to the thread or the site. Even if he (hopefully) did not know the facts of Leahy’s attendance at another college, why did he need to ask such an unnecessary question and why would he not receive a bad delete for such a reply. I find it disappointing that he is allowed to nash and throw stones at people have a differing opinion. Just my 2 cents.

  5. Here’s something positive for you: I think that Kelly speaks very well, and represents the football program and “his plan” better than any head coach since Lou! So, “Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!” Just be sure to beat Navy. Always.

  6. NDnation calls it as it sees it? Everyone sees things differently. Glass half empty/half full. Realist/Optimist/Pessimist ext…… I choose to be the eternal optimist! Go ND

  7. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    I don’t think that “EVERYONE at NDNation has already judged Brian Kelly to be a failure.” but that was the main tone of this board. If it wasn’t, why did you write an article defending the board? Did that many people really misinterpret the posts on the board? Doubtful.

    The bigger issue is that over the last few years this site has limited value in terms of actual football analysis or discussion.

    How about having a board where people actually talk about football instead of the Excise Police, the color of the helmets and the jersey number font?

    • Well, when you get mentioned on numerous blogs, including the national NBC one, as being over-reactionary, I don’t think a response is out of line.

      We talk about the excise police issues because they’re more important than the result of a football game. We’re NDNation.com, not NDFootball.com, so sports-related topics can be trumped by issues that affect the ND community.

      • “Rock’s House is our football board for posters who have been with us for more than a year, and is limited to the topic of ND football and current opponents. To request access, use the Contact Ops link above.”

  8. There have been plenty of unjust postings regarding Brian Kelly after two heartbreaking losses. The fact of the matter is, he’s a great coach who will turn it around in due time. These things take time, people! Look at what Coach Corrigan did with the lacrosse team…..if you’re a great coach and an even better person, you will succeed like other coaches have at ND, most notably, my mentor, Kevin Corrigan.

    Brian Kelly will be fine and will succeed

    • As an alum, I suggest that the Notre Dame community defines success by a national championship in a coach’s tenure, within a reasonable time frame, i.e., no later than the end of his contract period. Also: having teams that are consistently ranked in the Top 10. Certainly, no less than the Top 20.

      We haven’t had real success in years. There is no guarantee that Coach Kelly will be “successful” at Notre Dame. None. Time will tell.

  9. Here is what I am concerned about. 1)It appears that the loudest voices on this board are critical and alway finding a flaw in anything positive. Those that want to post positive comments may avoid doing so because of the backlash, and therefore the feel of the site is that of an angry unruly mob. 2)Because the appearance is that of an angry unruly mob, ND fans look like arrogant, unrealistic raving lunatics to the outside world, including to recruits. 3) It appears that this board ND’s only concern is football and they are ready to replace a school administration who is responsible for much more than football. While I want ND to win, the school represents much more to me.

    You can’t stop the dialogue, but I would ask that those so critical of positive posts to refrain from quickly dismissing those views as ridiculous. Unfortunately, it is easier to critique with data than to defend a postion based on hope and faith. Both matter.

  10. It’s two games people and two games that we should have won. I’m willing to put a little faith that with more time Kelly is going to right this ship. How can we know he’s not the guy after three weeks. The team looks different even in losing, seems like it hurts. There playing with emotion and just barely coming up short. The systems Kelly is installing aren’t even fully in yet. We score points and haven’t been allowing as many. Time will prove he’s the right kind of guy.

  11. you profess to only delete those opinions which are ridiculous, inane or overly emotional and you admit that you are arbritor of such standards. By that definition you are acting an a censor and one quite arbritary at that. How pompous an ass are you to suggest that no debate can be tolerated on the conference affiliation question as you defended above. If you were committed to an open exchange of ideas you would let them all out and the marketplace would take care of that. We each have a delete button. We can each ignore or accept arguments on all topics and from all angles. You may be a fine webmaster but you are no defender of the open exchange of unfettered communication without limits.

  12. I have frequented NDNation for 7-8 years now. While I do think there are many knowledgable posters here (which is why I continue to visit), it feels a lot different now than it did 5-6 years ago. I think there used to be a good balance of points of view. More recently if feels like the majority of posters seem to dwell in the negative aspects of our football team. I’m not saying fans shouldn’t analyze what is wrong with the program. Being an armchair QB is kinda what message boards are all about. It just feels like the negative posts far outnumber the optimistic posts, which makes the board unpleasant to read at times. Now to be clear, I don’t want to read a sunshine and flowers board where all we do is talk about the good things. I just look for more balance between the negative and positive.

    All that being said, I do appreciate the site. I really enjoy some of the other boards as well, including the political board.

    Go Irish!

  13. I am not as displeased with the 1-2 start as I was with Charlie Weis running the ship. Charlie’s vision was of himself, not of building a program. A program that’s been down for several years cannot rise up overnight and we are naive to think otherwise. What we need to see is if the building blocks of a successful program are being laid. You can see early on in Kelly’s tenure that he’s laying a foundation for the future. Be patient Irish nation, baby steps before we can run.

  14. I think the fact that people are even talking about Brian Kelly positive/negative after THREE GAMES says all we need to know.

    He’s coached THREE GAMES. There is no way in the world that anyone would be able to make an educated prediction of his success/failure after THREE GAMES. No one.

  15. Christopher J. Cochran says:

    I read the board occasionally, especially this time of the year. I review opinions, both pro and con, positive and negative – but mainly I look for facts that may not (yet) have been reported by the major news agencies, ie. who transferred, who committed, etc. I have never applied for “membership” because of what I believe to be an overly-censored message board. Hey, it’s your board – run it as you see fit – but I won’t join it. I see the entitlement issue is being worked by Kelly, et al, for the benefit of the football players – maybe y’all should consider working it from within for the benefit of NDNation.

    Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

  16. Personally, I think it’s fair to question Brian Kelly for his coaching. I fail to see any merit in calling 2 times out before punting at midfield. During the Michigan game, I was screaming my head off to call a time out after we were intercepted in our own territory. That’s when a time out is NEEDED. To help the defense get oriented. They’re young. One of the things that Davie could not do was run a 2 minute drill. We lost a game because he didn’t practice it. Yet, the team went out and lost again the following week (or two) because of the same thing – suggesting he did not practice and fix that issue. Here, our defense has been put in some tight spots, but it doesn’t use times out. Personally, I think the defense should be encouraged to use times out, because Kelly purposefully leaves them on the field too long (it’s part of his strategy). I don’t see any merit in avoiding a five yard penalty when punting from midfield. If that’s negativism, so be it. But, I think that’s fair criticism. (And, I, for one, wanted Kelly more than anyone as our coach. I just hope that he adjusts his scheme to account for his players.)

  17. This Notre Dame squad reminds me of my youth lax league growing up in Huntington. Solid crew of guyz, having fun, sweating and working hard. Good luck to all!

    PJC

  18. 3 games into the season and they are 1-2. They lost to Michigan because they couldn’t contain Denard Robinson.

    Who can?

    They lost to Michigan State because they were fooled.

    This is a young team and they are learning to win the hard way. There will come a game – or maybe a single play – when everything suddenly clicks. (Personally I would prefer that that happen on Saturday November 27, 2010 in Los Angeles California.)

    But because this is Notre Dame everyone in the whole darn (?) world has an opinion and when this thing turns around – and it will – these first three games will become “remember when?” Kelly is the right man for the job and the players he has there and the players on the way will TURN THIS AROUND WITHIN THREE SEASONS.

    This will pass – just be patient. Kelly is the RIGHT MAN FOR THE JOB.

  19. Wow, you guys take criticism worse than the Communist Party of China. As someone else said, if you guys want to do selective information control instead of a free exchange of ideas, that’s your choice.

    Generally, history has shown that people prefer to voice their own opinions rather than be told what to think and do. We’ll see what happens with NDN.

    Good luck